Cars that lack direct competition?

"RyanFrew" (ryanfrew) 04/12/2016 at 09:58 • Filed to: Monopoly

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!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! posted !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! this morning about what Subaru is going to do, now that the Evo is gone, pointing out that all of its competition comes in hatchback form (FoST/FoRS, Golf R) or as a “luxury” car (CLA AMG, S3). As a sedan, at its price point, the STi pretty much stands alone in its space.

This sparked another conversation about cars that lack direct competition, and whether that’s a good or bad thing. A few of the cars that I think lack direct competition, even if there are other cars that can be cross shopped against them:

Good, old, body on frame glory, right here. The 4Runner has better manners than a Wrangler, but still has the off-road chops that you won’t find in today’s Explorers or Pathfinders, and the xTerra died a quiet death last year.

Somehow, the Boxster S manages to stand alone in a segment that’s pretty crowded. What do you shop this against if you want a genuine droptop sports car? The TTRS has never been good enough, although we’ll see how the new gen really does. The Z4M is the same story. The M4 convertible is great, but probably too big or too heavy, if you want a Boxster. The Miata isn’t in the same league. Mustangs and Camaros aren’t true sports cars, even if they might hang with it on a track. The F-Type is close, but there is still a big asterisk next to it, since it’s not mid-engined. Honestly, the closest competition might be a 911 Cabrio, which doesn’t really count, for obvious reasons.

What am I missing, Oppo?

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:00

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Long live the 4Runner.

TheHondaBro > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:04

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Unless you’re willing to compare it with the luxury midsize coupes, the Accord Coupe has no direct competition.

BorkBorkBjork > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:07

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The Wrangler has no highway-legal competition, but as far as capability (and creature comforts), I would say it directly competes with side-by-side ATVs.

Dru > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 04/12/2016 at 10:07

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HUZZAH!!!!! I’ve owned 3. Currently have an ‘85. Brother has an 04, dad has an 05. Altogether my family has owned about 15 Toyotas in 30 years. about 10 of those being 4Runners.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:08

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What does someone cross shop against a PT Cruiser? A rickety cart of week-old fish heads drawn by a donkey with a gastrointestinal issue?

Personally, I’d opt for the latter.

JR1 > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:08

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The Land Rover Evoque Convertible

TheHondaBro > JR1 04/12/2016 at 10:10

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If only the Murano CrossCabriolet were still in production.

JR1 > TheHondaBro 04/12/2016 at 10:12

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I really liked that odd ball.*sighs

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > Dru 04/12/2016 at 10:12

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My family owns 8 Toyota/Lexus right now for 4 people. And that doesn’t include my girlfriend, her dad, and her brother who all also own Toyota/Lexi.

TheHondaBro > JR1 04/12/2016 at 10:12

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It’s becoming more appealing to me as well.

adamftw > BorkBorkBjork 04/12/2016 at 10:13

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After following a bunch of built JKs on 35s with a RZR 1000 on 30s I agree.

Party-vi > TheHondaBro 04/12/2016 at 10:13

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Nissan Altima Coupe, Hyundai Genesis Coupe, Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro...it’s a $20k coupe with an available V6.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:14

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TheHondaBro > Party-vi 04/12/2016 at 10:15

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The Altima coupe is no longer in production and the Mustang, Camaro, Gen Coupe are all RWD.

Dru > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 04/12/2016 at 10:17

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Is that why you are the resident Toyota guy?

Party-vi > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:17

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“The 4Runner has better manners than a Wrangler”

And costs $10k more. A base model 4Runner is the same price as a Wrangler Rubicon.

Party-vi > TheHondaBro 04/12/2016 at 10:18

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So what you’re saying is because power goes to the front wheels in the Honda, it doesn’t impact Ford/Chevy/Hyundai sales?

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > Dru 04/12/2016 at 10:18

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Indeed. Plus my parents own a Toyota/Lexus repair shop. It all tends to make sense.

Milky > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:20

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I’d say the Grand Cherokee and 4runner are competitors. Yea its not BOF, but its got the off road chops and good road manners.

As far having no direct competition, look no further.

Milky > TheHondaBro 04/12/2016 at 10:21

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Which is why I’d get “Mustang, Camaro, Gen Coupe” instead.

HammerheadFistpunch > adamftw 04/12/2016 at 10:26

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I would venture a guess that the balance of power in moab is now 50/50 jeeps to sxs now, and will further shift going forward

Amoore100 > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:28

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At least in the US:

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:31

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In America, you have the Fiesta ST with no real hot subcompact competition, especially with 4 doors. Mini, GTI, and others are a size up. 500 abarth is a size down and needs more doors.

I think the Chevrolet SS is the only full sized sedan with a V8/high output motor and a stick shift under 50 grand. Hell under 100 grand. The M5 is the only other one.

Nismo Juke is the only performance oriented CUV

Chevrolet colorado and Ram 1500 ecodiesel are the only ones with diesels in their truck classes.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > Dru 04/12/2016 at 10:31

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I have one. 99 SR5.

djmt1 > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:32

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The Disco has always been in a weird place. I can’t really think of a direct competitor that doesn’t better compare to something else Land Rover makes.

RyanFrew > Party-vi 04/12/2016 at 10:38

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Yep. I was just providing reasons that the two don’t go head to head, 100%

Justin Hughes > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:41

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I’d say the FR-S/BRZ/86 has no direct competition. Toyobaru and Mazda both claim that the 86 is not a Miata competitor. People compare them all the time, of course, but one is a roadster and the other is a coupe, and the driving experiences are quite different. Most comparable cars are bigger and/or much more expensive. The 370Z is both. You can buy a low level Mustang or Camaro for a similar price, and although the latest versions drive like genuine sports cars, they’re bigger, heavier, more powerful, and don’t handle as well. Not that they handle badly, but you can’t hide their weight.

jasmits > TheHondaBro 04/12/2016 at 10:41

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Any ‘lifestyle buyer’ looking at the Accord coupe will be interested in the V6 slushbox Mustangs and Camaros. It’s about the look, not what wheels are being turned.

camarov6rs > Party-vi 04/12/2016 at 10:43

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Be willing to bet that the majority of people who buy the accord coupe think 1. 2 doors=sports car 2. Fwd=good in snow. So while the others do #1 better they are removed because of #2.

TheHondaBro > Party-vi 04/12/2016 at 10:46

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There’s that, and there’s also the fact that a name like Mustang is iconic and has a history, whereas Accord doesn’t. And the Gen Coupe is marketed as a Nissan Z rival. People who buy Accord Coupes (not me) tend not to care too much about that stuff and they want something that looks sporty and is also known for reliability.

adamftw > HammerheadFistpunch 04/12/2016 at 10:47

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Yup. Will be interesting how it affects trail access. I can see RZRs being classified as ATVs and more trails removing access to them. Or more trails becoming 4x4/Jeep only.

TheHondaBro > jasmits 04/12/2016 at 10:48

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I’m not sure if I’d call the Accord Coupe a lifestyle car. It’s just a two-door version of one of America’s favorite midsize sedans.

Party-vi > TheHondaBro 04/12/2016 at 10:54

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People who buy Accord Coupe want something that looks sporty, just like every base-model Pony car consumer, eh?

Also the Accord nameplate has been around since ‘76 if I remember correctly, and they never made a Honda version of the Mustang II, so that’s a plus for Honda :p

Scary__goongala! > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 10:55

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The ND Miata? I can’t think of another inexpensive, RWD, convertible sports car.

jasmits > TheHondaBro 04/12/2016 at 11:06

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I just can’t think of any reason other than ‘lifestyle’ someone would buy the coupe over the sedan unless they are very determined to have a V6 manual Accord.

citizennick > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 11:09

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2016 Camaro SS

TheHondaBro > Milky 04/12/2016 at 11:13

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BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 11:25

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Hmmm, I wonder how many cars truly have no direct competitors. One thing people forget (and was part of why the sports car declined in the 70s) is that people don’t just compare cars of one type against another. People are far less specific.

Back in the early 70s here in Europe, people had a choice of the dated Spitfire, the dated MGB, the dated TR6 or a Golf GTi that would blow all of those sports cars out of the water speed-wise. People bought the GTi in ever increasing numbers and the market shifted.

A lot of buyers simply want something that goes fast. Or at least want something that goes fast with a soft top, or goes fast with decent practicality, or is practical and good on fuel, or can be an only car that is also good off road. The various layouts and designs used to get to those places might privilege one car over another in certain traits, but if all those cars all have those basic traits then they are competing for the same market, hatchback or not.

Enthusiasts definitely see the car world in more granular detail to your average consumer. We will see the nuances between a FWD hatchback-based convertible penalty-box and a RWD purpose-built small sports car. To a non-enthusiast a VW Eos is a convertible 2-door and a Miata/MX-5 is a convertible 2-door.

Caveat: the above is massively simplified, and more people care about cars than I originally thought when I first got into them, but it's easy to get bogged down in detail when deciding whether cars are comparable or not.

Milky > TheHondaBro 04/12/2016 at 11:26

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The fast one is double the price of the Hellcat. I don’t think that counts as a competitor.

RyanFrew > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 04/12/2016 at 11:33

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Totally agree. There isn’t any car out there that can’t be cross-shopped against something , depending upon a buyer’s criteria.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Party-vi 04/12/2016 at 11:37

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Women. Want. FWD. They’ve been told time and time again that it is *safer* than RWD. Not better, but safer (and this is pretty true, on average, for the average buyer) and yes, the accord coupe is the last of the FWD coupes.

Source: My mom and a bunch of other women in the auto industry I’ve worked with.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Party-vi 04/12/2016 at 11:39

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Right or wrong, the mustang is seen as a sports car where the accord is a family car. The accord coupe is a family car with some style. You can’t haul your family in a mustang, that’s a sports car! Besides, only middle aged men, hairdressers, and young punks drive mustangs, the accord is for responsible adults and parents!

Note - I’m speaking in terms of what the average car shopper thinks, not how things actually are.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 11:52

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I’d say the Wrangler (or the Defender over here) are pretty well in a class of their own. Capable off road, spartan enough to be cheap but enough of a car to be a legitimate only car.

Something like the Veyron was in a class of its own until the Chiron popped up. Mind-boggling speed, but not a raw hypercar like everyone else.

Struggling to think of much else though...

Steve in Manhattan > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 11:52

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The Boxster/Cayman range has no direct competition that I can think of .... Of any Porsche within reach, that would be my choice. Engine in the right place and all that ....

jasmits > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 04/12/2016 at 12:01

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Wrangler’s only true competitor in the states is the used market of cheap 4x4s.

Although I would make a case for the Unlimited and 4runner being direct competition. Identical base prices(33k), choice comes down to wind-in-your-hair vs refinement and probably reliability.

jasmits > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 12:02

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BUT it has the same base price as a Wrangler Unlimited. And the same number of doors. So it comes down to refinement vs removable roof as far as I can work out.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > jasmits 04/12/2016 at 12:04

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Yeah the only competitor for a Defender here is a used Defender (or maybe an old Hilux of something of the sort). Bought new is a different matter, although as the Defender’s just gone out of production it won’t be long before you can’t get them new.

I hadn't thought about price points actually. There could be a car that does exactly the same as a number of other cars, but if it's 10k cheaper then I'd say it's in a market of its own. Vice-versa is well, as you've pointed out.

jjhats > RyanFrew 04/12/2016 at 12:05

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n

Shift24 > jasmits 04/12/2016 at 12:13

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See i disagree. I have an accord coupe and pony car and I would never even consider cross shopping ether of them. I get the point it’s a sporty 2 door but the drive train and class divide the two.

Some one who is looking at an Accord coupe is looking for something reliable, fun to drive, can be an any weather car (that’s key), have a comfortable ride, and not too over the top. Where as a Camaro or Mustang or Challenger have a more aggressive stance and ride.

And when you think about it class wise, the mid-size segment is meant to be the responsible car and there isnt another coupe in the group. Where as Pony cars are more of a brash/rebellious pick.

Van Man, rocks the Man Van > citizennick 04/12/2016 at 12:27

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I get where you’re coming from, actually. It drives too well to compete with traditional pony cars like the Mustang, but it’s also significantly less expensive than similar-driving German car.

Shift24 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 04/12/2016 at 12:32

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Agreed and even from an enthusiast’s stand point you know that if you put the two on the 'Ring they will perform way differently. One will have under-steer where as the other is more likely to have over-steer.

I have both (accord coupe and camaro) and not for one second I would compare the two. Totally different chassis set up and drivetrains.

jasmits > Shift24 04/12/2016 at 13:15

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I’m still stuck on the fact that if it’s supposed to be the ‘responsible’ car why would you possibly go for the coupe over the sedan(although that might be why it’s the only one). No offense intended, just don’t get it.

yamahog > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 04/12/2016 at 13:42

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First off, no.

Second, no.

Also, no.

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 04/12/2016 at 13:47

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Please, tell me what car I want to buy next. Since you're so in tune with what cars women want...

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Little Black Coupe Turned Silver 04/12/2016 at 13:56

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Not my words, words of GM. As in, my mom, working at the ren cen, said that. That was what the data said.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > yamahog 04/12/2016 at 13:57

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Enthusiast website =/= general public. I’m literally repeating what people I’ve talked to in the industry at various levels have said, one of them being my mom.....

yamahog > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 04/12/2016 at 14:01

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If you’re talking about people who prioritize safety, you’re still wrong. The market research says AWD.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > yamahog 04/12/2016 at 14:04

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Well now that most things can have AWD, I agree with that statement. But 10ish years ago when you had a lot more FWD coupes, that wasn’t the case. The accord coupe is just the last one standing.

Shift24 > jasmits 04/12/2016 at 14:08

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Your fine, and I didn’t mean to come across as cross if I did but what I mean and “themanwithsauce” hints at it, pony cars are not for families they are play toys. And putting a baby seat in a Mustang or Camaro is unfathomable to the average consumer, where as a family coupe that still technically has 5 seats is deemed safer. Not saying it’s right but that’s how it’s viewed.

And as we say it’s the only mid size coupe, I have heard rumors that Honda plans switch the coupe to Acura in 2018